Anthropic’s conflict with the US government has escalated, with President Trump ordering all federal agencies to stop using the AI company’s products. This came after Anthropic wanted to limit how one of the Pentagon’s AI tools could be used. William Brangham discussed this further with Michael Horowitz. He previously worked at the Department of Defense, where he developed policy on AI weapons systems.
Jeff Bennett:
The conflict between artificial intelligence company Anthropic and the US government escalated sharply today. President Trump slammed the company’s leadership and ordered all federal agencies to stop using Anthropic products. And the Department of Defense designated the company as a supply chain risk to national security.
William Brangham joined with more companions — William.
William Brangham:
That’s right, Jeff.
Anthropic has long said it does not want the U.S. military to use its programs for fully autonomous weapons systems or mass surveillance of American citizens. Negotiations continued this week, but appear to have ended due to the president’s orders.
The Pentagon designation prohibits companies that do business with the Department of the Army from doing commercial business with Anthropic.
We talk to Michael Horowitz of the University of Pennsylvania to find out what this means. He previously worked for the Department of Defense, where he wrote the department’s policy on artificially intelligent weapons systems.
Michael Horowitz, I’m so glad you’re here.
Could you tell me first? Your response to this is to say that we are completely wiping Anthropic out of the federal government and that the Department of Defense contractors that do business with Anthropic have to stop them as well.
Michael Horowitz, former Department of Defense official:
What a day.
Frankly, I think my first thought is that it quickly escalated and the seemingly unnecessary dispute between Antropic and the Department of Defense reached a crisis point.
I’m making an unnecessary argument because Anthropic was the first company in the Frontier AI Institute that was willing to work with the Department of Defense, willing to work with the Department of Defense in a classified environment. And Anthropic happily worked on any project the Department of Defense asked Anthropic to collaborate on.
This is a theoretical dispute between humanity and the Department of Defense regarding possible futures, which has now escalated in earnest. The President’s order, combined with Secretary Hegseth’s order, not only has a devastating impact on the Department of Defense’s ability to use Anthropic’s technology, but also could have a devastating impact on Anthropic’s core business, depending on how it is interpreted in the market and whether Anthropic is able to obtain a suspension of the supply chain designation.
William Brangham:
How will this affect America’s ability to maintain a strong defense?
That means Anthropic was reportedly already in use in many parts of the Pentagon. So now if the president is saying get everything out of there, how does that impact our ability to maintain our defense?
Michael Horowitz:
Anthropic’s technology wasn’t just used in parts of the Department of Defense. It was used in other parts of the government as well.
So this can be pretty devastating in some ways. The only mediator is the six-month period that appears in both the President’s announcement and Secretary Hegseth’s supply chain designation.
If you want to be optimistic about the two sides’ chances of reaching an agreement, the optimistic view is that in some ways this sets a six-month deadline for negotiations between Anthropic and the government. But in some ways you have to squint quite a bit to understand that optimism.
And if Antropic and the Pentagon don’t work out, frankly, the winner is in a sense China. Because in a world where there is intense AI competition between the United States and China, including in the military field, the United States’ frontier AI research institutes should do their best to work with the Department of Defense to improve the United States’ national defense.
And humans have been happy to do that. If nothing is done over a period of 6-9 months, you would imagine that some of the other AI labs will jump in and try to take some of that business. Notably, Elon Musk’s xAI is already in full swing, saying last week that he is ready to work with the Department of Defense in sensitive environments to address defense challenges.
William Brangham:
That’s correct. It’s hard to imagine that there aren’t many other companies willing to intervene in this breach.
But I want to ask you about this request that Anthropic was making. They said, except in these two cases, you’re happy to use our product. And what do you make of that request? It’s hard to imagine Northrop Grumman, another defense contractor, saying, “We’ll sell you a jet, but you can only use it in a certain way.”
Michael Horowitz:
absolutely.
So, this is what really escalated the dispute between Anthropic and the government, and Anthropic insisted that its technology should not be used for mass surveillance or autonomous weapons systems, but let me be clear, this did not bother the Department of Defense at the time of Anthropic, when they signed their first contract with Anthropic less than a year ago.
This further escalated after Anthropic actually asked Palantir, another major technology company, whether Anthropic’s technology was used in January’s Maduro attack, in part using Palantir’s Maven Smart System technology, and whether its platform incorporated some of Anthropic’s technology.
And from there it was off to the races. In a sense, this is a debate about individuals, a debate about the role of government disguised as a policy debate. Because in a normal atmosphere, Anthropic would decide that it wanted to work on some issues for the Department of Defense and not others, and the Pentagon would hire Anthropic to work on some things but not others. You may also find other vendors.
But this escalated to the point where the department threatened to either enforce the Defense Production Act or impose supply chain designations.
William Brangham:
As you said, what a day it was.
Thank you very much to Mr. Michael Horowitz from the University of Pennsylvania for visiting us.
Michael Horowitz:
Thank you for having me.
