While artificial intelligence promises an unprecedented future of productivity and wealth, for Senator Bernie Sanders, the key question is not whether technology will change the world, but who will benefit from it. As a lifelong champion of workers' rights, Sanders sees the rapid advancement of AI not only as a technological revolution, but also as the next major battlefield in the battle against corporate greed and inequality.
In a conversation with Gizmodo, the Vermont Senator, who had just spoken with one of the world's leading AI experts, expressed fear that technology could be used to curb wages, defeat unions and enrich the billionaire class. He also shared concerns about the impact of AI on our collective mental health, and discussed “end-of-apocalyptic scenarios” in which humanity is worried about losing control of his creation in the industry.
The conversation has been edited to make it clear and formatted as a Q&A. All citations are verbatim and unchanged.
Gizmod: Senator, you have been fighting for the dignity of the workers for a long time. What do you think is a new definition of meaningful work in an economy that is increasingly shaped by AI?
Senator Sanders: Well, that's a very good question and I don't know that I can give you an intellectual answer to it now, but this is what I say. What I think is lost in the debate around AI is what we've seen over the past 50 years. It is a significant increase in workers' productivity. Almost all of the benefits of its productivity come to the company and the companies that have developed its technology. In fact, today's workers are reducing their income due to actual inflation wages. I am very afraid that almost every new benefit of worker productivity will be on top at the expense of workers. That's very much about me.
So the first point is created: technology and AI are neither good nor bad. It depends on how it is used, and it depends on who benefits from it. Unless we change the political dynamics, profits come to those at the top at the expense of workers. For me, that is the most important issue. I want workers to benefit from this new technology, not just from the top.
Historically, I have forever had to – in human existence – struggle to survive, put food on the table, on farms, and grow food. And as AI is trying to change everything, I want to make sure this brings a better, wealthy future not only for top people but also for ordinary people.
Gizmodo: From a protection perspective, what protection is needed to avoid American workers being left behind in this transition?
Senator Sanders: I think we have to clarify that in some formulation, and some unions are beginning to negotiate about this. If worker productivity is what you are doing now becomes more productive with AI, I want to accumulate it with you.
What does that mean? That could mean a short work week, a 32-hour work week. Again, the main point is that workers must benefit from increased productivity, not just CEOs. For now, it's not so, so that's what we have to change.
Gizmod: What should the response be like when the CEO says, “Automatically automate these tasks and there are fewer workers?”
Senator Sanders: that's right. See, we need to make sure that this technology benefits workers, not just CEOs. So, if companies develop AI that allows workers to be more productive, what we want to see is a short labor week without compromising wages.
Other things I worry about are two very important issues: mental health and human happiness, as they go beyond economics and the possibility of mass unemployment.
Gizmod: What does that mean, Senator?
Senator Sanders: People interact with artificial intelligence and robotics every day. What are the implications for mental health and human well-being?
What happens if you interact with a chatbot all day, rather than talking to friends and family? What problems will arise?
I know that in America, many young people spend so much time on the internet that they struggle to interact with other people. And there are people out there, literally from the tech world. “If you can't make friends, if you're very lonely, you can go to a chatbot and raise friends right there.” I don't know that this is good for humans.
Gizmod: There is a sense that people are losing and AI is erasing our identity, our role in society…
Senator Sanders: Well, do you know the expression “The surgery was a success, unfortunately the patient died”?
In this regard, the system is working well. We develop all kinds of technologies. You can do this. You will be able to do that. Unfortunately, humans will get lost in their development. And they become increasingly unhappy, more and more mentally unstable, and more lonely.
So we want to make sure that technology benefits humans both economically and emotionally. That must be the driving force.
Gizmod: Have you spoken to the tech CEO or experts about this?
Senator Sanders: I spoke to the CEO. It's weird that you mention it. I have not mentioned his name, but I answered a call two hours ago with one of the world's leading experts on artificial intelligence.
Gizmod: Did they share your concerns? Did they provide any solution?
Senator Sanders: They are all different. He did. Someone I spoke to yesterday, not that much.
There are differences in opinions. On some major issues. Number One: How does AI have an impact on the economy? Some say there are massive job losses. I tend to agree with them.
Others say there isn't that much, new jobs are created. It will become like every other technological revolution. Lost jobs, created jobs, not that big of a deal. So people don't agree. I just happen to believe that this is not like the Industrial Revolution. I think this will be even more serious.
Second point: This is not science fiction. There are very knowledgeable people – and I spoke with one person today – humans can't control technology and are very concerned about artificial intelligence actually dominating our society. It cannot be controlled. It may have control over us. It's a kind of end-of-apocalypse scenario. And there are concerns about it among highly knowledgeable people in the industry.
Gizmod: Are you personally optimistic, or pessimistic about AI or society, or society?
Senator Sanders: That's a broader question. Currently, there is the worst president in US history.
We see democracy itself being threatened around the world. There are terrible wars in Ukraine and terrible wars in Gaza. So I don't think this is a great moment for humanity.
But we hope we can turn this around. And, among many, we use the benefits of artificial intelligence and robotics to improve human life. To help clear poverty. That all of us can have a decent standard of living. This is doable.
The greed of a billionaire controls the process. However, ordinary people must control their future.
Gizmod: One final question is, do you think AI can be used to strengthen union and workers' rights, or is it essentially a threat to organized labor?
Senator Sanders: At the moment, I think it's even more of a threat. And in a way, I think the bad US trade policy is being used in the way it was used in the '70s.
In other words, employers say, “Look, I want you to cut your salary, or you want you to pay more for medical care. And if you don't, we have a robot that can replace you. We can replace you.
So I think we must mobilize the trade union movement and become extremists in facing the dangers of AI against workers' rights.
